I don’t know guys, some of these defenses seem shaky.
Is Ian’s math correct? Surely Galadriel is waaaaaaay older than 900 years by the middle of the Second Age. She was around in the First Age. Wouldn’t that make her at least 3000 years old? Even if the timeline is compressed to bring in her character arc, it strains credulity to have headstrong Young Galadriel command the allegiance of so many elves that are much older than her.
Also Tar-Miriel never got to rule. Her dad died, and immediately Pharazon seized the throne and forced her to marry him. That’s a Me-Too storyline gift-wrapped for them, but the creators had to put her on the throne instead.
Seems like the show forces in modern messaging wherever it can, especially when it comes to ensuring women are featured in roles of authority/power and making every people look like no people.
Yes, Harfoots are darker than the other two branches of hobbit. But why only some of them in the show? Why are some of them fair-skinned Irish hobbits, some of them are dark-skinned Afro-Irish hobbits, and some of them are kinda dark-skinned in-between-Irish hobbits? Wouldn’t a nomadic tribe be ethnically homogenous?
The show constantly sacrifices authentic world-building (something that deeply mattered to Tolkien) for DEI points. In the promo, they couldn’t stop proclaiming how diverse the show was. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes Tolkien’s creation so beloved all around the world.
Lastly, Tolkien described LOTR as “a fundamentally religious and Catholic work.” That’s not projection.
Sure. Some criticisms of the show are dumb, but strawmanning (sp?) the critics is also dumb.
Thanks for this! I was so tired of reading all the hate as I have really enjoyed the show. I went into it with minimal expectations and hoping just to enjoy it on its own. It is way better than I expected. I passed this show along to one of my former students and a Tolkien nerd who has been one of the haters. Maybe y'all will help him ease up on his vitriol. :)
Thanks, guys, for doing this. You’ve pulled me back enough to keep watching. But. You pointed out some of the dumber arguments against the show, and I agree with those. But there are still some *huge* misses in the whole premise of this show. The elves leaving Valinor is cast as some sort of Inigo Montoya-style revenge quest, but really the reason the elves left Valinor boils down to pride, hubris, and ungratefulness. Ian mentions this a little toward the end. That theme though is not something a modern American media company appears willing to explore. (And Gil-Galad sending a ship back to Valinor as a reward is not a thing that would’ve fit. The elves were mostly self-banished and they knew it).
Also, sorry, but having “Tolkien nerds” as advisors on the show is probably more of a curse than a help. Especially if they’re at all “professional” Tolkien nerds. I don’t know who the particular advisors are, but get a load of some representative papers presented at the 2021 Tolkien Society conference (a very recognized group, which includes Priscilla Tolkien as VP):
-“Gondor in Transition: A Brief Introduction to Transgender Realities in The Lord of the Rings”
-“The Lossoth: Indigeneity, Identity, and Antiracism”
-“Something Mighty Queer’: Destabilizing Cishetero Amatonormativity in the Works of Tolkien”
-“Pardoning Saruman?: The Queer in Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings”
-“The Invisible Other: Tolkien’s Dwarf-Women and the ‘Feminine Lack”
If the advisors are kin to the Tolkien Society…
Anyway the music and costumes and tech parts are all good. Really all the acting is fine too. Galadriel is good, even if they’re getting close to Mary Sue territory (see: cave troll scene). But there are some misses that go deeper than dark-skinned hobbits and pale white orcs. I’m still not on board yet.
I’ve been giving the show a chance but its beginning has felt so clumsy and Galadriel so prosaic as a character. I appreciate some of the historical references you’re giving. I think a challenge the show writers may have is that they have a young, female, rebel warrior in a film landscape of horrible young, female rebel warriors in our own age. So, yes, conservatives are tired of that. We truly are.
We like Eowyn because she is distinctly feminine and yet she also slays on the battlefield. Eowyn manages to be young, rebellious, and feminine. Not so with Galadriel. Her male warriors all attack one cave troll that she downs in one stroke. I fully admit that both Eowyn and Galadriel’s characters need to have some heavy interpretation- but I don’t know that it follows that she must be “I am woman, hear me roar” just because she is young. I think what has concerned me (and I’ll keep watching) is the idea that somehow the male elves she fights alongside are weaker than her in order to make her look strong - and that’s what bothers me. We don’t have to make men look weak to have strong women. I think that message is tired. But as I said I will keep watching and I truly hope it gets better in that respect.
BUT also - the fact that she’s so young is helpful to interpret that. I think the actress playing her is brilliant and does an excellent job - I’d love to see her in more things.
Wait, Is Glorfindel older than Galadriel? He shows up in the Fellowship too. I would love it if they put him back into the story. He was my favorite character when I first read the book.
I don’t know guys, some of these defenses seem shaky.
Is Ian’s math correct? Surely Galadriel is waaaaaaay older than 900 years by the middle of the Second Age. She was around in the First Age. Wouldn’t that make her at least 3000 years old? Even if the timeline is compressed to bring in her character arc, it strains credulity to have headstrong Young Galadriel command the allegiance of so many elves that are much older than her.
Also Tar-Miriel never got to rule. Her dad died, and immediately Pharazon seized the throne and forced her to marry him. That’s a Me-Too storyline gift-wrapped for them, but the creators had to put her on the throne instead.
Seems like the show forces in modern messaging wherever it can, especially when it comes to ensuring women are featured in roles of authority/power and making every people look like no people.
Yes, Harfoots are darker than the other two branches of hobbit. But why only some of them in the show? Why are some of them fair-skinned Irish hobbits, some of them are dark-skinned Afro-Irish hobbits, and some of them are kinda dark-skinned in-between-Irish hobbits? Wouldn’t a nomadic tribe be ethnically homogenous?
The show constantly sacrifices authentic world-building (something that deeply mattered to Tolkien) for DEI points. In the promo, they couldn’t stop proclaiming how diverse the show was. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes Tolkien’s creation so beloved all around the world.
Lastly, Tolkien described LOTR as “a fundamentally religious and Catholic work.” That’s not projection.
Sure. Some criticisms of the show are dumb, but strawmanning (sp?) the critics is also dumb.
This was really encouraging! I was so scared to give the show a chance!!!
Thanks for this! I was so tired of reading all the hate as I have really enjoyed the show. I went into it with minimal expectations and hoping just to enjoy it on its own. It is way better than I expected. I passed this show along to one of my former students and a Tolkien nerd who has been one of the haters. Maybe y'all will help him ease up on his vitriol. :)
Thanks, guys, for doing this. You’ve pulled me back enough to keep watching. But. You pointed out some of the dumber arguments against the show, and I agree with those. But there are still some *huge* misses in the whole premise of this show. The elves leaving Valinor is cast as some sort of Inigo Montoya-style revenge quest, but really the reason the elves left Valinor boils down to pride, hubris, and ungratefulness. Ian mentions this a little toward the end. That theme though is not something a modern American media company appears willing to explore. (And Gil-Galad sending a ship back to Valinor as a reward is not a thing that would’ve fit. The elves were mostly self-banished and they knew it).
Also, sorry, but having “Tolkien nerds” as advisors on the show is probably more of a curse than a help. Especially if they’re at all “professional” Tolkien nerds. I don’t know who the particular advisors are, but get a load of some representative papers presented at the 2021 Tolkien Society conference (a very recognized group, which includes Priscilla Tolkien as VP):
-“Gondor in Transition: A Brief Introduction to Transgender Realities in The Lord of the Rings”
-“The Lossoth: Indigeneity, Identity, and Antiracism”
-“Something Mighty Queer’: Destabilizing Cishetero Amatonormativity in the Works of Tolkien”
-“Pardoning Saruman?: The Queer in Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings”
-“The Invisible Other: Tolkien’s Dwarf-Women and the ‘Feminine Lack”
If the advisors are kin to the Tolkien Society…
Anyway the music and costumes and tech parts are all good. Really all the acting is fine too. Galadriel is good, even if they’re getting close to Mary Sue territory (see: cave troll scene). But there are some misses that go deeper than dark-skinned hobbits and pale white orcs. I’m still not on board yet.
I’ve been giving the show a chance but its beginning has felt so clumsy and Galadriel so prosaic as a character. I appreciate some of the historical references you’re giving. I think a challenge the show writers may have is that they have a young, female, rebel warrior in a film landscape of horrible young, female rebel warriors in our own age. So, yes, conservatives are tired of that. We truly are.
We like Eowyn because she is distinctly feminine and yet she also slays on the battlefield. Eowyn manages to be young, rebellious, and feminine. Not so with Galadriel. Her male warriors all attack one cave troll that she downs in one stroke. I fully admit that both Eowyn and Galadriel’s characters need to have some heavy interpretation- but I don’t know that it follows that she must be “I am woman, hear me roar” just because she is young. I think what has concerned me (and I’ll keep watching) is the idea that somehow the male elves she fights alongside are weaker than her in order to make her look strong - and that’s what bothers me. We don’t have to make men look weak to have strong women. I think that message is tired. But as I said I will keep watching and I truly hope it gets better in that respect.
BUT also - the fact that she’s so young is helpful to interpret that. I think the actress playing her is brilliant and does an excellent job - I’d love to see her in more things.
Thanks for sharing your understanding of this. Makes me realize how much I ‘supposed’ and how little I understood
You’re giving me hope that I could actually watch this. Always appreciate hearing Ian over here!
Wait, Is Glorfindel older than Galadriel? He shows up in the Fellowship too. I would love it if they put him back into the story. He was my favorite character when I first read the book.
This was really helpful! I knew I didn't agree with most opinions out there but I've been trying to decide how I feel.