The final pages of The Picture of Dorian Gray are pretty wild, packed full of famous scenes and images, so join David, Heidi, and Tim as they discuss the demise of several characters, the question of conscience in the end of the story, and what the prologue can tell us about the conclusion. As always, happy listening!
The edition I have pointed out in the afterword that Dorian basically gets away with everything - he’s not caught or criminally prosecuted for Basil’s murder. The one witness conveniently commits suicide, and the avenger of Sybil is also conveniently killed in an accident. He does not show remorse or regret for his sins. He gets his comeuppance, but he’s not intending to. He only wants to destroy the portrait. So while the book shows the shortcomings, it doesn’t resolve them in a way that would satisfy the Victorian mindset.
Because it’d be wrong not to have a quote from The Ethics of Beauty:
You can’t put Beauty “last” and expect to wind up with anything but ugliness. And to adopt the opposite of the human progression - to exchange Beauty-Goodness-Truth for Truth-Goodness-Beauty - is to make ourselves post-humans, super-humans, gods. This temptation afflicts all of us who give in utterly to hedonistic pleasure, by the way; we know everything and lose both our fear of God, and our shame. This is akin to the berserk state. And because homosexuality so often involves or increases, reservoirs of suppressed rage within the prisoners of these inclinations, the increasing prevalence of its practice will make our society more berserk with time. Meanwhile, among heterosexuals, the “friends with benefits“ approach just saps all eros, makes our soul flat an empty. Such a soul, in turn, cannot see the wrongness in same-sex unions.”
The rage that precedes Dorian murdering his friend comes to mind. Also, a word search for “ugly” in the novel is very “interesting”.
I find this “...so disorienting because the thing I love about the book is the thing he says he not trying to do with the book” Hundo-percent, Heidi. I even had a moment reading toward the end when I was imagining and yearning for the glory of Dorian’s redemption - true beauty.
“Interestingly”, I thought of a Brideshead Revisited quote right before it was brought up! They (Heidi I think) mentioned the persistence of Lord Henry’s charm.
“I took you out to dinner to warn you of charm. I warned you expressly and in great detail of the Flyte family. Charm is the great English blight. It does not exist outside these damp islands. It spots and kills anything it touches. It kills love; it kills art; I greatly fear, Charles, it has killed you.'
One question that y'all posed was who is the moral center of this book--who are we supposed to look to? I think it's right there in the title: it's the painting. For reasons you have discussed, none of the people in the story are completely trustworthy. But the painting reveals all.
And I think it's fascinating that Wilde didn't title the book "Dorian Gray." It's not him but the picture of him.
This episode was a description of why I love this podcast. The banter. The constant teasing. The solid literary discussion. I think just to spite Lord Henry we need some mauve shirts with a quote from this show...something about being interesting and/or thought provoking.
Ah, yes, we tried to catch up on the schedule so we did to the end. My apologies for the confusion. I would suggest finishing the reading if you don’t already know how it ends.
The edition I have pointed out in the afterword that Dorian basically gets away with everything - he’s not caught or criminally prosecuted for Basil’s murder. The one witness conveniently commits suicide, and the avenger of Sybil is also conveniently killed in an accident. He does not show remorse or regret for his sins. He gets his comeuppance, but he’s not intending to. He only wants to destroy the portrait. So while the book shows the shortcomings, it doesn’t resolve them in a way that would satisfy the Victorian mindset.
Because it’d be wrong not to have a quote from The Ethics of Beauty:
You can’t put Beauty “last” and expect to wind up with anything but ugliness. And to adopt the opposite of the human progression - to exchange Beauty-Goodness-Truth for Truth-Goodness-Beauty - is to make ourselves post-humans, super-humans, gods. This temptation afflicts all of us who give in utterly to hedonistic pleasure, by the way; we know everything and lose both our fear of God, and our shame. This is akin to the berserk state. And because homosexuality so often involves or increases, reservoirs of suppressed rage within the prisoners of these inclinations, the increasing prevalence of its practice will make our society more berserk with time. Meanwhile, among heterosexuals, the “friends with benefits“ approach just saps all eros, makes our soul flat an empty. Such a soul, in turn, cannot see the wrongness in same-sex unions.”
The rage that precedes Dorian murdering his friend comes to mind. Also, a word search for “ugly” in the novel is very “interesting”.
I find this “...so disorienting because the thing I love about the book is the thing he says he not trying to do with the book” Hundo-percent, Heidi. I even had a moment reading toward the end when I was imagining and yearning for the glory of Dorian’s redemption - true beauty.
“Interestingly”, I thought of a Brideshead Revisited quote right before it was brought up! They (Heidi I think) mentioned the persistence of Lord Henry’s charm.
“I took you out to dinner to warn you of charm. I warned you expressly and in great detail of the Flyte family. Charm is the great English blight. It does not exist outside these damp islands. It spots and kills anything it touches. It kills love; it kills art; I greatly fear, Charles, it has killed you.'
[Anthony Blanche to Charles Ryder]
One question that y'all posed was who is the moral center of this book--who are we supposed to look to? I think it's right there in the title: it's the painting. For reasons you have discussed, none of the people in the story are completely trustworthy. But the painting reveals all.
And I think it's fascinating that Wilde didn't title the book "Dorian Gray." It's not him but the picture of him.
This episode was a description of why I love this podcast. The banter. The constant teasing. The solid literary discussion. I think just to spite Lord Henry we need some mauve shirts with a quote from this show...something about being interesting and/or thought provoking.
I had read chapters 13-16 in preparation for todays podcast, which was what the schedule indicated. Before I listen, do I need to finish the book?
I wish I'd known that before listening, but thankfully I am not too fussed about spoilers
I am glad I stopped listening in time! I would have hated to have this ending spoiled!
As it happens this ended up being possibly my favorite episode of the podcast
Ah, yes, we tried to catch up on the schedule so we did to the end. My apologies for the confusion. I would suggest finishing the reading if you don’t already know how it ends.