Sean, we got home from paradise- I mean Portland on Sunday and I think we had the same PDX-DFW experience, including exit row upgrade then delay on the tarmac at DFW then my daughter puking at 3am… I’ll keep throwing these things out there: CR Oregon 2025?…
Yep, I had to finish the book with this section (a CR first for me maybe?) I also was gutted at Mam’s pronouncement that Leonie just doesn’t have the mothering instinct. I want to understand Leonie more, but I still have less empathy than I was hoping to by the end. I don’t fully see why she is the way she is - so angry and hurting and vindictive. Maybe I’m not giving enough weight to Given’s death. Is this intentional of Ward or bad character development?
Same reaction over here… I started out really empathizing with her, but just was so angry at her by the end I could not get past that too empathize. I think the book needs a couple of more chapters between returning home and the end for a lot of free sense including character development for Leone.
I was thinking about the question of food and vomit, Leonie as a mother who never feeds her kids, who deliberately or at least thoughtlessly withholds food, and who (at least indirectly) makes them vomit instead (If Kayla is carsick then bringing her on the roadtrip is what induces the vomiting).
First, it makes me think of Kristin Lavransdatter and the conversation about Kristin's youngest child who dies of malnutrition. Because of deliberate neglect, some kind of undiagnosed problem-- it's not clear. I'm not sure what to make of that, but it's an interesting parallel. Does that conversation belong more in the KL Q&A?
Second, as I was listening in the car I was reminded of a lecture from my undergraduate days about the University as Alma Mater. The literal meaning of Alma Mater is "Nourishing Mother". And I was thinking that literally Leonie is the opposite of an Alma Mater. She is anything but a nourishing mother. not only does she not provide nourishing food, she brings her daughter what is probably poison and she is connected to exposing them to the very dangerous environments where drugs are present. She consistently chooses the path of death and destruction instead of the path of life. I'm not sure if this amounts to anything but musing on a linguistic curiosity, but it made me think a bit about the nature of motherhood and nurturing.
Also the contrast that the very first thing we see Pop do in the novel is slaughter a goat to make a birthday feast for Jojo. At first it seems scary, because the boy is scared of death OR perhaps even more scared of losing Pop's respect. (Oh and he vomits too, doesn't he!) And Pop does respect him and looks kindly at him "his eyes aren't hard any more" after Jojo throws up. And he manufactures the excuse of Kayla waking to give Jojo an excuse to return to the house.
Listening to the discussion I think what we see in the story is a kind of natural hope, but not the supernatural virtue of Hope, which together with Faith and Love is one of the three theological virtues.
The reason I couldn't put this book down was not because of hope but because of fear. I was simply afraid for the children. And I contrast that with The Road which I likewise read at a breakneck pace. In that novel I felt plenty of fear for the boy and sorrow for his trauma, but the big difference was I never doubted the love of the father. But also from the beginning there were small wayside tokens, little signs that pointed towards the divine and transcendent and specifically to a Catholic and sacramental worldview. Those markers gave me a feeling that supernatural Hope might indeed be present. They kept me hoping for more and more grace. I don't feel like Sing Unburied Sing has an equivalent of those markers. For example Mam's "rosary". The first time we see it through Leonie's eyes we learn that it is used for praying to "the Mothers", it's a form of ancestor worship. There's something spiritual there for sure, but I'm not sure whether it's transcendent. Mam has a statue of the Virgin Mary, but I'm not sure whether she's pointing us towards her son, Jesus, as is her proper role. The name of Jesus is not mentioned but twice. Once as a curse by Michael and the other during Richie's testimony, again seemingly used in a blasphemous way as a person encourages another to murder a child: "Jesus says suffer the little children so I let her go and he put me under the water and I couldn't breathe.". And the other rosary we see is hanging from the mirror of a car at Michael's parents' house. That also feels a little hypocritical given what we know of his parents.
I know faith is complicated even with McCarthy, but I think he's got enough of a sacramental worldview that clings to the edges at least that it feels different to me. I don't get the sense that Ward is leaving us the kind of rabbit trail of crumbs that I sensed with McCarthy.
Sean, we got home from paradise- I mean Portland on Sunday and I think we had the same PDX-DFW experience, including exit row upgrade then delay on the tarmac at DFW then my daughter puking at 3am… I’ll keep throwing these things out there: CR Oregon 2025?…
Yep, I had to finish the book with this section (a CR first for me maybe?) I also was gutted at Mam’s pronouncement that Leonie just doesn’t have the mothering instinct. I want to understand Leonie more, but I still have less empathy than I was hoping to by the end. I don’t fully see why she is the way she is - so angry and hurting and vindictive. Maybe I’m not giving enough weight to Given’s death. Is this intentional of Ward or bad character development?
Same reaction over here… I started out really empathizing with her, but just was so angry at her by the end I could not get past that too empathize. I think the book needs a couple of more chapters between returning home and the end for a lot of free sense including character development for Leone.
I was thinking about the question of food and vomit, Leonie as a mother who never feeds her kids, who deliberately or at least thoughtlessly withholds food, and who (at least indirectly) makes them vomit instead (If Kayla is carsick then bringing her on the roadtrip is what induces the vomiting).
First, it makes me think of Kristin Lavransdatter and the conversation about Kristin's youngest child who dies of malnutrition. Because of deliberate neglect, some kind of undiagnosed problem-- it's not clear. I'm not sure what to make of that, but it's an interesting parallel. Does that conversation belong more in the KL Q&A?
Second, as I was listening in the car I was reminded of a lecture from my undergraduate days about the University as Alma Mater. The literal meaning of Alma Mater is "Nourishing Mother". And I was thinking that literally Leonie is the opposite of an Alma Mater. She is anything but a nourishing mother. not only does she not provide nourishing food, she brings her daughter what is probably poison and she is connected to exposing them to the very dangerous environments where drugs are present. She consistently chooses the path of death and destruction instead of the path of life. I'm not sure if this amounts to anything but musing on a linguistic curiosity, but it made me think a bit about the nature of motherhood and nurturing.
Also the contrast that the very first thing we see Pop do in the novel is slaughter a goat to make a birthday feast for Jojo. At first it seems scary, because the boy is scared of death OR perhaps even more scared of losing Pop's respect. (Oh and he vomits too, doesn't he!) And Pop does respect him and looks kindly at him "his eyes aren't hard any more" after Jojo throws up. And he manufactures the excuse of Kayla waking to give Jojo an excuse to return to the house.
Listening to the discussion I think what we see in the story is a kind of natural hope, but not the supernatural virtue of Hope, which together with Faith and Love is one of the three theological virtues.
The reason I couldn't put this book down was not because of hope but because of fear. I was simply afraid for the children. And I contrast that with The Road which I likewise read at a breakneck pace. In that novel I felt plenty of fear for the boy and sorrow for his trauma, but the big difference was I never doubted the love of the father. But also from the beginning there were small wayside tokens, little signs that pointed towards the divine and transcendent and specifically to a Catholic and sacramental worldview. Those markers gave me a feeling that supernatural Hope might indeed be present. They kept me hoping for more and more grace. I don't feel like Sing Unburied Sing has an equivalent of those markers. For example Mam's "rosary". The first time we see it through Leonie's eyes we learn that it is used for praying to "the Mothers", it's a form of ancestor worship. There's something spiritual there for sure, but I'm not sure whether it's transcendent. Mam has a statue of the Virgin Mary, but I'm not sure whether she's pointing us towards her son, Jesus, as is her proper role. The name of Jesus is not mentioned but twice. Once as a curse by Michael and the other during Richie's testimony, again seemingly used in a blasphemous way as a person encourages another to murder a child: "Jesus says suffer the little children so I let her go and he put me under the water and I couldn't breathe.". And the other rosary we see is hanging from the mirror of a car at Michael's parents' house. That also feels a little hypocritical given what we know of his parents.
I know faith is complicated even with McCarthy, but I think he's got enough of a sacramental worldview that clings to the edges at least that it feels different to me. I don't get the sense that Ward is leaving us the kind of rabbit trail of crumbs that I sensed with McCarthy.
I’m interested in exploring the four humors in relationship to all the bodily fluids in this book.
Oh! That's an interesting idea!
Thinking also River is described as red, Kayla is golden/vomit, cancer associated with black.
Different characters also seemed to connect with different elements, specifically earth and water.