Do you think there is no Aslan because this is the world between worlds? Aslan isn’t in the world between worlds in Narnia either (at least that we see). Is there a possible interpretation that Susanna Clarke is pointing us to the possibility of full healing in a world with Aslan? I’m not sure I even believe that, I’m just thinking out loud. Maybe a little bit more hopeful? Full disclosure that I don’t know anything about Susanna Clarke except that I’ve read Piranesi and Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.
Just read these two passages side by side, the first from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader:
“Lucy looked along the beam and presently saw something in it. At first it looked like a cross, then it looked like an aeroplane, then it looked like a kite, and at last with a whirring of wings it was right overhead and was an albatross. It circled three times round the mast and then perched for an instant on the crest of the gilded dragon at the prow. It called out in a strong sweet voice what seemed to be words though no one understood them. After that it spread its wings, rose, and began to fly slowly ahead, bearing a little to starboard. Drinian steered after it not doubting that it offered good guidance. But no one but Lucy knew that as it circled the mast it had whispered to her, “Courage, dear heart,” and the voice, she felt sure, was Aslan’s, and with the voice a delicious smell breathed in her face.”
And then from Piranesi:
"I saw a vision! In the dim Air above the grey Waves hung a white, shining cross. Its whiteness was a blazing whiteness; it far outshone the Wall of Statues behind it. It was beautiful but I did not understand it. The next moment brought enlightenment of a sort: it was not a cross at all but something vast and white, which glided rapidly towards me on the Wind.
[. . .]
I spread my arms in answer to its spread wings, as if I was going to embrace it. I spoke out loud. Welcome! Welcome! Welcome! was what I think I meant to say, but the Wind took my breath from me and all I could manage was: ‘Come! Come! Come!’
The bird sailed across the heaving Waves, never once beating its wings. With great skill and ease it tipped itself slightly sideways to pass through the Doorway that separated us. Its wingspan surpassed even the width of the Door. I knew what it was! An albatross!
Still it continued, straight towards me, and the strangest thought came to me: perhaps the albatross and I were destined to merge and the two of us would become another order of being entirely: an Angel! This thought both excited and frightened me, but still I remained, arms outstretched, mirroring the albatross’s flight. (I thought how surprised the Other would be when I flew into the Second South-Western Hall on my Angel Wings, bringing him messages of Peace and Joy!) My heart beat rapidly.
The moment that he reached me – the moment that I thought we would collide like Planets and become one! – I gave out a sort of gasping cry – Aahhhh! In the same instant, I felt some sort of pent-up tension go out of me, a tension I did not know I had until that moment. Vast, white wings passed over me. I felt and smelt the Air those wings brought with them, the sharp, salty, wild tang of Faraway Tides and Winds that had roamed vast distances, through Halls I would never see."
I don't see how anyone can read these two passages together and not see that Clarke means the albatross to be read as an Aslan figure, as a Christ figure.
I suppose the objection is that as Piranesi sees more clearly he says it's not a cross? But the same thing happens to Lucy: it seems to be a cross then an airplane then a kite, then an albatross.
It's so clearly an echo of Lucy's vision. And Lucy hear's Aslan's voice. And for Piranesi, he doesn't hear a voice but it provokes him to prayer (echoing St John in Revelation: Come, Come). And the albatross brings him peace and joy and releases a tension he didn't know he had. It's also compared to an angel. And the albatross brings with it the smell of the sea, which is always baptismal imagery, invoking Noah's flood, the Red Sea, the waters of the Jordan.
re: the possibility of other worlds. The novel specifically says there are.
In the extract from Arne-Sayles's book The Half-Seen Door where he describes finding the world of the house he describes seeing many doors and picking one among many:
"All around me doors into other worlds began appearing but I knew the one I wanted, the one into which everything forgotten flows. The edges of that door were frayed and worn by the passage of old ideas leaving this world."
And when Raphael is describing how she got there she says:
"Arne-Sayles described what to do, how to go back to a pre-rational mode of thought. He said that when I’d done that, I’d see paths all around me and he told me which one to choose. I thought he meant metaphorical paths. It was a bit of a shock when it turned out he didn’t.’"
"Paths all around me" suggests that yes there are many worlds to choose from and she picks the path that takes her to the House.
Loved the thought-provoking discussion throughout this whole series! The segment on unsettling books was a fascinating one that I want to let stew a bit more. Something that struck me is how relative it all is. For instance, someone elsewhere in this thread pointed out that the structure of one's foundation impacts how and where they might be unsettled.
Also, Heidi offered up books by Neil Gaiman* and George R.R. Martin** as works that unsettle her, whereas they have served the opposite role in my life. Tolkien's idea that "we create because we were created" has always struck me as beautiful, and I find myself drawn to imaginative world-building, which is an area where Gaiman and Martin excel. If I was picking up their books in order to form my values, then they would be unsettling, but they serve a different purpose when I turn to them.
* There is, however, the whole fruit of the poisonous tree angle with Gaiman that I think someone could argue makes them inherently unsettling. I haven't tried reading anything by him since the news of his predatory actions came out. To be honest, I think that knowledge would prevent the secondary belief needed to escape into his worlds, and I probably would find them unsettling now.
** I do think it's worth separating The Song of Ice and Fire books from the Game of Thrones show. Sean mentioned how Game of Thrones feels like softcore, and I do think the show was oftentimes gratuitous, whereas I felt like Martin was much more nuanced in the books as unscrupulous actions almost always had deleterious consequences.***
*** It only felt appropriate to use footnotes when talking about Susanna Clarke, considering Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell has the best use of footnotes in anything I've read (Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay comes second)
For what it's worth, my judgment regarding Martin is based entirely upon the first novel, which was prurient enough to put me off the rest. I have not seen the show.
I also love Tolkien's idea of the innate desire to create but also suspect he would have concerns about a great many sub-creations. He might remind us that our values are often formed by ritual more readily than by intent/mental assent and that we become what we behold. I'm still not sure reading those guys for the world-building isn't the equivalent of listening to gangster-rap for the beats.
I really enjoyed this whole series and the comments!
The first time I read this, I felt dazed but had very positive feelings about the House and the character Piranesi. This time through, while I love Piranesi deeply, it his hard for me to read the book other than with grief for his fractured soul and the experiential death of Matthew Rose Sorenson.
I resonate deeply with the two comments on the previous episode: one about returning from a foreign land and the other about spiritual abuse. While the House does seem to have made Piranesi pure or innocent, this book presents a bleak picture of what that means. At the least, Piranesi hasn't been sanctified in a Lewis-ian way. To me, he seems more like a Rousseau-ian tabula rasa than a 'realer,' 'more himself,' 'further up and further in' man.
P.S. Melanie and others, sorry for not replying to earlier comments about the question of sanity. I took a social media break. Those are good points. After listening to more discussion, I think 'insane' is probably the most nihilistic way to think of Piranesi if it were used to write him and his choices off.
The discussion about books that unsettle was an important one. My point, and I think Sean was hinting at something similar, was that it’s easier and more fruitful to read (some) unsettling books once you have a knowledge of the foundational texts. Someone who is well-grounded in comprehension and in faith can grow them with a text that might devastate someone who is shaky in either or both.
Loved hearing Heidi’s thoughts about healing and division at the end! I’m interested in agreeing 😂
I know catharsis has a technical definition that I probably couldn’t articulate accurately due to my ignorance of Greek literary conventions, but I think it’s more the sense of “something is missing.” Also really liked the point of Narnia without Aslan.
Great episode! Have really enjoyed these conversations. I liked the book, but found the ending unsatisfying to some degree. My main takeaway was the issue of isolation and how much God made us for community.
Do you think there is no Aslan because this is the world between worlds? Aslan isn’t in the world between worlds in Narnia either (at least that we see). Is there a possible interpretation that Susanna Clarke is pointing us to the possibility of full healing in a world with Aslan? I’m not sure I even believe that, I’m just thinking out loud. Maybe a little bit more hopeful? Full disclosure that I don’t know anything about Susanna Clarke except that I’ve read Piranesi and Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.
There's no Aslan in the novel?!?! What?
The albatross is Aslan!
Just read these two passages side by side, the first from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader:
“Lucy looked along the beam and presently saw something in it. At first it looked like a cross, then it looked like an aeroplane, then it looked like a kite, and at last with a whirring of wings it was right overhead and was an albatross. It circled three times round the mast and then perched for an instant on the crest of the gilded dragon at the prow. It called out in a strong sweet voice what seemed to be words though no one understood them. After that it spread its wings, rose, and began to fly slowly ahead, bearing a little to starboard. Drinian steered after it not doubting that it offered good guidance. But no one but Lucy knew that as it circled the mast it had whispered to her, “Courage, dear heart,” and the voice, she felt sure, was Aslan’s, and with the voice a delicious smell breathed in her face.”
And then from Piranesi:
"I saw a vision! In the dim Air above the grey Waves hung a white, shining cross. Its whiteness was a blazing whiteness; it far outshone the Wall of Statues behind it. It was beautiful but I did not understand it. The next moment brought enlightenment of a sort: it was not a cross at all but something vast and white, which glided rapidly towards me on the Wind.
[. . .]
I spread my arms in answer to its spread wings, as if I was going to embrace it. I spoke out loud. Welcome! Welcome! Welcome! was what I think I meant to say, but the Wind took my breath from me and all I could manage was: ‘Come! Come! Come!’
The bird sailed across the heaving Waves, never once beating its wings. With great skill and ease it tipped itself slightly sideways to pass through the Doorway that separated us. Its wingspan surpassed even the width of the Door. I knew what it was! An albatross!
Still it continued, straight towards me, and the strangest thought came to me: perhaps the albatross and I were destined to merge and the two of us would become another order of being entirely: an Angel! This thought both excited and frightened me, but still I remained, arms outstretched, mirroring the albatross’s flight. (I thought how surprised the Other would be when I flew into the Second South-Western Hall on my Angel Wings, bringing him messages of Peace and Joy!) My heart beat rapidly.
The moment that he reached me – the moment that I thought we would collide like Planets and become one! – I gave out a sort of gasping cry – Aahhhh! In the same instant, I felt some sort of pent-up tension go out of me, a tension I did not know I had until that moment. Vast, white wings passed over me. I felt and smelt the Air those wings brought with them, the sharp, salty, wild tang of Faraway Tides and Winds that had roamed vast distances, through Halls I would never see."
I don't see how anyone can read these two passages together and not see that Clarke means the albatross to be read as an Aslan figure, as a Christ figure.
I suppose the objection is that as Piranesi sees more clearly he says it's not a cross? But the same thing happens to Lucy: it seems to be a cross then an airplane then a kite, then an albatross.
It's so clearly an echo of Lucy's vision. And Lucy hear's Aslan's voice. And for Piranesi, he doesn't hear a voice but it provokes him to prayer (echoing St John in Revelation: Come, Come). And the albatross brings him peace and joy and releases a tension he didn't know he had. It's also compared to an angel. And the albatross brings with it the smell of the sea, which is always baptismal imagery, invoking Noah's flood, the Red Sea, the waters of the Jordan.
re: the possibility of other worlds. The novel specifically says there are.
In the extract from Arne-Sayles's book The Half-Seen Door where he describes finding the world of the house he describes seeing many doors and picking one among many:
"All around me doors into other worlds began appearing but I knew the one I wanted, the one into which everything forgotten flows. The edges of that door were frayed and worn by the passage of old ideas leaving this world."
And when Raphael is describing how she got there she says:
"Arne-Sayles described what to do, how to go back to a pre-rational mode of thought. He said that when I’d done that, I’d see paths all around me and he told me which one to choose. I thought he meant metaphorical paths. It was a bit of a shock when it turned out he didn’t.’"
"Paths all around me" suggests that yes there are many worlds to choose from and she picks the path that takes her to the House.
Loved the thought-provoking discussion throughout this whole series! The segment on unsettling books was a fascinating one that I want to let stew a bit more. Something that struck me is how relative it all is. For instance, someone elsewhere in this thread pointed out that the structure of one's foundation impacts how and where they might be unsettled.
Also, Heidi offered up books by Neil Gaiman* and George R.R. Martin** as works that unsettle her, whereas they have served the opposite role in my life. Tolkien's idea that "we create because we were created" has always struck me as beautiful, and I find myself drawn to imaginative world-building, which is an area where Gaiman and Martin excel. If I was picking up their books in order to form my values, then they would be unsettling, but they serve a different purpose when I turn to them.
* There is, however, the whole fruit of the poisonous tree angle with Gaiman that I think someone could argue makes them inherently unsettling. I haven't tried reading anything by him since the news of his predatory actions came out. To be honest, I think that knowledge would prevent the secondary belief needed to escape into his worlds, and I probably would find them unsettling now.
** I do think it's worth separating The Song of Ice and Fire books from the Game of Thrones show. Sean mentioned how Game of Thrones feels like softcore, and I do think the show was oftentimes gratuitous, whereas I felt like Martin was much more nuanced in the books as unscrupulous actions almost always had deleterious consequences.***
*** It only felt appropriate to use footnotes when talking about Susanna Clarke, considering Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell has the best use of footnotes in anything I've read (Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay comes second)
Thanks for the comment!
For what it's worth, my judgment regarding Martin is based entirely upon the first novel, which was prurient enough to put me off the rest. I have not seen the show.
I also love Tolkien's idea of the innate desire to create but also suspect he would have concerns about a great many sub-creations. He might remind us that our values are often formed by ritual more readily than by intent/mental assent and that we become what we behold. I'm still not sure reading those guys for the world-building isn't the equivalent of listening to gangster-rap for the beats.
I really enjoyed this whole series and the comments!
The first time I read this, I felt dazed but had very positive feelings about the House and the character Piranesi. This time through, while I love Piranesi deeply, it his hard for me to read the book other than with grief for his fractured soul and the experiential death of Matthew Rose Sorenson.
I resonate deeply with the two comments on the previous episode: one about returning from a foreign land and the other about spiritual abuse. While the House does seem to have made Piranesi pure or innocent, this book presents a bleak picture of what that means. At the least, Piranesi hasn't been sanctified in a Lewis-ian way. To me, he seems more like a Rousseau-ian tabula rasa than a 'realer,' 'more himself,' 'further up and further in' man.
P.S. Melanie and others, sorry for not replying to earlier comments about the question of sanity. I took a social media break. Those are good points. After listening to more discussion, I think 'insane' is probably the most nihilistic way to think of Piranesi if it were used to write him and his choices off.
The discussion about books that unsettle was an important one. My point, and I think Sean was hinting at something similar, was that it’s easier and more fruitful to read (some) unsettling books once you have a knowledge of the foundational texts. Someone who is well-grounded in comprehension and in faith can grow them with a text that might devastate someone who is shaky in either or both.
Loved hearing Heidi’s thoughts about healing and division at the end! I’m interested in agreeing 😂
I know catharsis has a technical definition that I probably couldn’t articulate accurately due to my ignorance of Greek literary conventions, but I think it’s more the sense of “something is missing.” Also really liked the point of Narnia without Aslan.
Great episode! Have really enjoyed these conversations. I liked the book, but found the ending unsatisfying to some degree. My main takeaway was the issue of isolation and how much God made us for community.