Listen now (62 min) | This week we’re discussing Mrs. Smith’s sudden appearance (and her role) in the book, whether the book considers all of Anne’s various perspectives and actions as virtuous, whether Anne made the wrong choice in rejecting Wentworth way back when, and much, much more. Happy listening!
There's a pertinent discussion in Ch 23 (the penultimate chapter of the book) which I think also should be taken into account, when Mrs Musgrove and Mrs Croft are talking about the unwisdom of a long or uncertain engagement. Anne and Captain Wentworth both eavesdrop on it and react to it and it touches very clearly on their case.
Especially the sentiment uttered by Mrs Croft, who by this point I believe we are to see as a very wise and prudent person who also has a very realistic understanding of the world and its uncertainties:
"... or an uncertain engagement, an engagement which may be long. To begin without knowing that at such a time there will be the means of marrying, I hold to be very unsafe and unwise, and what I think all parents should prevent as far as they can."
I love the persuasion going on in this discussion!. I am one who thinks that Anne should not have refused Frederick Wentworth and would like to add the additional reason that that feels like the tone of the book and that the potential of a second chance for Anne is very strong. I want them to be together. Anne's good judgment grows with our reading while those who advised her diminish, and the positive example of Mrs. Croft as a woman who prioritized her love life is a more compelling model than Mrs. Smith.
I like your point that as we read we see that the judgment of Lady Russell, Anne's chief counselor, is flawed. Her desire to see Anne married Mr. Elliot is a strike against her, and that calls into question her advice to Anne to break off her engagement. She misread Wentworth's character and it wasn't just his economic situation she objected to. Otherwise, I think she might have been kinder with the two young people's feelings and instead of counseling a "No," might have counseled a "Not yet," giving Wentworth some time and motivation to improve his situation so he could support a wife.
I think this can't actually be answered until reading the next section where Anne and Mrs. Smith have a conversation. I have always felt this was the eye opening moment of what Jane Austen thought. Trying not to spoil things here ... let's just say that with what comes next, coupled with the conversation about Mrs. Smith that Blueroses began below, leaves me with the answer that Anne made the right choice.
I think we will need to revisit this question at the end of the novel, when Wentworth has overheard a conversation regarding long engagements and Anne asks herself whether she had been right or wrong.
For the past few years I have toyed with the idea that evaluating an actual decision can’t be done by looking at the result much at all.
A decision itself is possibly good or bad depending on the factors, effort to disern facts, and risk involved at the time it was made, etc. People can make good decisions that end badly, and poor decisions that end well. Thats the theory anyway.
Its hard for me to tell exactly with Anne and Wentworth, which feels deliberate by the author.
First, loved the discussion as always. Thanks to Heidi for absolutely nailing what I dislike about so many modern novels-that they show the inferiority of immoral and/or unlikeable people. Vice and selfishness is not nearly as interesting as moderns seem to think, and Anne’s attempts to be a good person in very trying circumstances is much more fascinating. As for the question, I always wonder if there couldn’t have been some middle ground-could she have gone for a longer engagement until his “prospects” were a bit more secure? Could she simply have had an honest conversation with him about the pressure she was facing? Anne clearly reveres the memory of her mother (and her loss clearly traumatized her), the only family member who seems to have shown her the affection she deserved, and Lady Russell is her closest connection/approximation to that relationship. I don’t blame her for yielding to the influence of such a person, especially if she feared losing Lady Russell (her second mother) if Anne defied Lady Russell’s advice.
If Anne had a more thoughtful parent, let’s say her mother had been alive, the parent could have said that there could be no engagement until Wentworth could support her, because in reality, they couldn’t marry until then anyway. It would have been the equivalent of Henrietta’s situation where there is an understanding, but no engagement, until Charles Hayter had the ability to provide a home. Lady Russell’s advice was colored by snobbery so Wentworth never considers its wisdom and left in anger.
I also think Wentworth, being a man who had the opportunity and temperament to make his own fortune, lacked understanding and empathy on the risks to a woman who married against her family’s wishes (see Fanny Price’s family for an example). He was in a profession where he could very likely die or be disabled, leaving her with children and no means of support except her father’s possible charity. I like older, wiser Wentworth much better than his brash younger self.
I always thought there had to be a middle ground option, I like the connection to Charles/Henrietta! And totally agree about Wentworth-he had some growing up to do!
I think Anne was wrong to break her engagement. The phrase “no faith in herself or friends” kept coming to my mind (which may have come from a sitcom holiday special I recently watched, so…) Her decision showed a lack of faith in Frederick, due I think to a lack of faith in herself (self-knowledge) and a lack of faith in her on the part of Lady Russell. I can imagine the blow that would be to Frederick and his felt sense of trust from Anne.
The “natural sequel” to this “forced prudence” could have taken many forms with it without Wentworth. Or could it have? To me, the fact that he shows up later speaks to the romantic view of love in the novel. As a Christian I see romantic love as God’s mysterious and beautiful weaving and working in our hearts. It may not be necessary, but it’s beautiful. So the cultivation of Anne’s heart could have happened within an early marriage just as well. And perhaps Frederick would have worked all the harder having won her hand. He was not a Mr. Smith. (As readers we may not know that truth, but Anne should have - and I think did know it.)
As a modern, who chose my husband from what I felt then was an intuitive knowing of my soulmate, as well as with the slight disapproval of my parents (they wouldn’t admit it now), I learned romance first. I wonder if I’ve learned prudence after 13 years of marriage, but after several hard years I know I’m learning trust. I’m glad I didn’t heed my parents but chose to cleave to my would-be husband. But I do wonder what Psyche would have done…
This is a really hard question, and I can see definitely see both sides, but I'm going to come down, like Anne, "on the side of early warm attachment, and a cheerful confidence in futurity" because my own experience of marriage has borne that out. I don't fault Anne for making the decision she made, though, given her youth, her trust in her friend, the uncertainties of Wentworth's profession, the fact her own economic security is tied to her marriage. I think she would've been better off being part of Wentworth's family than her own, given what we've seen of them. The Crofts and probably his brother would have valued Frederick's wife more than Anne's own family valued her as a daughter and sister.
In all the times I’ve considered this question, I never thought about the Crofts as being part of Anne’s family if she married Wentworth. That is a great point!
Such an interesting question, and I have trouble separating it in my mind from the fact that Wentworth does show up again in Anne's life. It could so easily have been the case that Wentworth never showed up again. If Wentworth had never shown up eight years later, do I still think Anne made the right choice originally? Maybe that is way too speculative, but I do find it intriguing to contemplate. I think it speaks highly of Anne that she does grow in virtue even after turning Wentworth down and believing she has completely missed her chance with him. She could easily have become an Elizabeth who is bitter about her earlier missed chance with William Eliot. In that case, I think my answer to the question is: "It doesn't matter." Either way, Anne has it in her to be a virtuous person, which seems like the ideal end goal for Jane Austen.
I’m greatly enjoying this discussion of Persuasion. Thanks Close Reads team! In response to the question if Anne should have turned down Wentworth, I think she was right in doing so, although Anne herself feels it as a failure. Up to that point, she had no reason to mistrust Lady Russel’s judgment. The Anne we meet at this point in life clearly thinks independently of others, and doesn’t need guidance. But it was natural for a younger Anne to trust her mother’s close friend.
I am not sure what Anne should have done, but we are shown how much she has changed since that time. Suffering often lends itself to growth and strengthening of character and we see that in Anne. I do not believe Lady Russell was in the wrong. Those of us with meeker temperaments must learn to navigate the world alongside more pushy people. Anne coming into her own creates a beautiful story and I'm not sure that would have happened if she had married Wentworth so young.
Anne’s willingness to associate with Mrs. Smith in her new “lowly” situation despite the way her father and sister talk about her and try to *persuade* her not to shows how much Anne has grown and changed. She’s able to stand up to her pushy, arrogant family and prefer a sincere friend rather than be pressured into a vapid lifestyle of parties and trying to milk fake ties with distant relatives just because they’re higher in rank or richer than she is.
For my evidence I submit this passage from chapter 17 🤣:
and Elizabeth was disdainful, and Sir Walter severe.
"Westgate Buildings!" said he, "and who is Miss Anne Elliot to be visiting in Westgate Buildings? A Mrs Smith. A widow Mrs Smith; and who was her husband? One of five thousand Mr Smiths whose names are to be met with everywhere. And what is her attraction? That she is old and sickly. Upon my word, Miss Anne Elliot, you have the most extraordinary taste! Everything that revolts other people, low company, paltry rooms, foul air, disgusting associations are inviting to you. But surely you may put off this old lady till to-morrow: she is not so near her end, I presume, but that she may hope to see another day. What is her age? Forty?"
Anne was right to have turned Wentworth down, and that is one reason for the presence of Mrs. Smith in the story. Mrs. Smith shows us what could have been Anne's fate if fortune had not smiled upon Captain Wentworth. She could have been a penniless widow, cut off from her family for having made in imprudent association. But Anne, being the sensitive, introspective person she is, would probably not have been able to accept her situation the way that Mrs. Smith does. Poor thing would have been so miserable.
I've been thinking about this comment, and I kind of have the opposite take on Mrs. Smith. Mrs. Smith married a man who was said to have a large fortune and was not in a dangerous profession, like Wentworth. And yet she still ended up a poor widow, because she married a man who lacked character (he was extravagant, we are told, and left his affairs in a mess). Her situation shows me that there are no guarantees in life; that fortunes can be lost as well as made, that husbands can die even if they aren't military men, and that a prudent marriage choice does not always lead to security. What I'm seeing in the novel is that love and character endure, and those are a better basis for marriage.
Mrs. Smith did not have close family, that is why she was still at the school in Bath when Anne attended. She is perhaps an example of a young woman who did not have the guidance of a parent or parental figure, but I believe she is mostly there to explain Mr. Eliot’s history.
Yes! She's the opposite of Anne as well as really annoying me for reasons that I can't discuss until the next episode. I think the question is premature because the author is not yet done commenting upon it herself until later in the book.
There's a pertinent discussion in Ch 23 (the penultimate chapter of the book) which I think also should be taken into account, when Mrs Musgrove and Mrs Croft are talking about the unwisdom of a long or uncertain engagement. Anne and Captain Wentworth both eavesdrop on it and react to it and it touches very clearly on their case.
Especially the sentiment uttered by Mrs Croft, who by this point I believe we are to see as a very wise and prudent person who also has a very realistic understanding of the world and its uncertainties:
"... or an uncertain engagement, an engagement which may be long. To begin without knowing that at such a time there will be the means of marrying, I hold to be very unsafe and unwise, and what I think all parents should prevent as far as they can."
I love the persuasion going on in this discussion!. I am one who thinks that Anne should not have refused Frederick Wentworth and would like to add the additional reason that that feels like the tone of the book and that the potential of a second chance for Anne is very strong. I want them to be together. Anne's good judgment grows with our reading while those who advised her diminish, and the positive example of Mrs. Croft as a woman who prioritized her love life is a more compelling model than Mrs. Smith.
I like your point that as we read we see that the judgment of Lady Russell, Anne's chief counselor, is flawed. Her desire to see Anne married Mr. Elliot is a strike against her, and that calls into question her advice to Anne to break off her engagement. She misread Wentworth's character and it wasn't just his economic situation she objected to. Otherwise, I think she might have been kinder with the two young people's feelings and instead of counseling a "No," might have counseled a "Not yet," giving Wentworth some time and motivation to improve his situation so he could support a wife.
I think this can't actually be answered until reading the next section where Anne and Mrs. Smith have a conversation. I have always felt this was the eye opening moment of what Jane Austen thought. Trying not to spoil things here ... let's just say that with what comes next, coupled with the conversation about Mrs. Smith that Blueroses began below, leaves me with the answer that Anne made the right choice.
I think we will need to revisit this question at the end of the novel, when Wentworth has overheard a conversation regarding long engagements and Anne asks herself whether she had been right or wrong.
For the past few years I have toyed with the idea that evaluating an actual decision can’t be done by looking at the result much at all.
A decision itself is possibly good or bad depending on the factors, effort to disern facts, and risk involved at the time it was made, etc. People can make good decisions that end badly, and poor decisions that end well. Thats the theory anyway.
Its hard for me to tell exactly with Anne and Wentworth, which feels deliberate by the author.
First, loved the discussion as always. Thanks to Heidi for absolutely nailing what I dislike about so many modern novels-that they show the inferiority of immoral and/or unlikeable people. Vice and selfishness is not nearly as interesting as moderns seem to think, and Anne’s attempts to be a good person in very trying circumstances is much more fascinating. As for the question, I always wonder if there couldn’t have been some middle ground-could she have gone for a longer engagement until his “prospects” were a bit more secure? Could she simply have had an honest conversation with him about the pressure she was facing? Anne clearly reveres the memory of her mother (and her loss clearly traumatized her), the only family member who seems to have shown her the affection she deserved, and Lady Russell is her closest connection/approximation to that relationship. I don’t blame her for yielding to the influence of such a person, especially if she feared losing Lady Russell (her second mother) if Anne defied Lady Russell’s advice.
If Anne had a more thoughtful parent, let’s say her mother had been alive, the parent could have said that there could be no engagement until Wentworth could support her, because in reality, they couldn’t marry until then anyway. It would have been the equivalent of Henrietta’s situation where there is an understanding, but no engagement, until Charles Hayter had the ability to provide a home. Lady Russell’s advice was colored by snobbery so Wentworth never considers its wisdom and left in anger.
I also think Wentworth, being a man who had the opportunity and temperament to make his own fortune, lacked understanding and empathy on the risks to a woman who married against her family’s wishes (see Fanny Price’s family for an example). He was in a profession where he could very likely die or be disabled, leaving her with children and no means of support except her father’s possible charity. I like older, wiser Wentworth much better than his brash younger self.
I always thought there had to be a middle ground option, I like the connection to Charles/Henrietta! And totally agree about Wentworth-he had some growing up to do!
I think Anne was wrong to break her engagement. The phrase “no faith in herself or friends” kept coming to my mind (which may have come from a sitcom holiday special I recently watched, so…) Her decision showed a lack of faith in Frederick, due I think to a lack of faith in herself (self-knowledge) and a lack of faith in her on the part of Lady Russell. I can imagine the blow that would be to Frederick and his felt sense of trust from Anne.
The “natural sequel” to this “forced prudence” could have taken many forms with it without Wentworth. Or could it have? To me, the fact that he shows up later speaks to the romantic view of love in the novel. As a Christian I see romantic love as God’s mysterious and beautiful weaving and working in our hearts. It may not be necessary, but it’s beautiful. So the cultivation of Anne’s heart could have happened within an early marriage just as well. And perhaps Frederick would have worked all the harder having won her hand. He was not a Mr. Smith. (As readers we may not know that truth, but Anne should have - and I think did know it.)
As a modern, who chose my husband from what I felt then was an intuitive knowing of my soulmate, as well as with the slight disapproval of my parents (they wouldn’t admit it now), I learned romance first. I wonder if I’ve learned prudence after 13 years of marriage, but after several hard years I know I’m learning trust. I’m glad I didn’t heed my parents but chose to cleave to my would-be husband. But I do wonder what Psyche would have done…
This is beautiful, Suzanne.
This is a really hard question, and I can see definitely see both sides, but I'm going to come down, like Anne, "on the side of early warm attachment, and a cheerful confidence in futurity" because my own experience of marriage has borne that out. I don't fault Anne for making the decision she made, though, given her youth, her trust in her friend, the uncertainties of Wentworth's profession, the fact her own economic security is tied to her marriage. I think she would've been better off being part of Wentworth's family than her own, given what we've seen of them. The Crofts and probably his brother would have valued Frederick's wife more than Anne's own family valued her as a daughter and sister.
In all the times I’ve considered this question, I never thought about the Crofts as being part of Anne’s family if she married Wentworth. That is a great point!
That is such a good point about Wentworth’s family valuing Anne more than her own!
Such an interesting question, and I have trouble separating it in my mind from the fact that Wentworth does show up again in Anne's life. It could so easily have been the case that Wentworth never showed up again. If Wentworth had never shown up eight years later, do I still think Anne made the right choice originally? Maybe that is way too speculative, but I do find it intriguing to contemplate. I think it speaks highly of Anne that she does grow in virtue even after turning Wentworth down and believing she has completely missed her chance with him. She could easily have become an Elizabeth who is bitter about her earlier missed chance with William Eliot. In that case, I think my answer to the question is: "It doesn't matter." Either way, Anne has it in her to be a virtuous person, which seems like the ideal end goal for Jane Austen.
I’m greatly enjoying this discussion of Persuasion. Thanks Close Reads team! In response to the question if Anne should have turned down Wentworth, I think she was right in doing so, although Anne herself feels it as a failure. Up to that point, she had no reason to mistrust Lady Russel’s judgment. The Anne we meet at this point in life clearly thinks independently of others, and doesn’t need guidance. But it was natural for a younger Anne to trust her mother’s close friend.
I am not sure what Anne should have done, but we are shown how much she has changed since that time. Suffering often lends itself to growth and strengthening of character and we see that in Anne. I do not believe Lady Russell was in the wrong. Those of us with meeker temperaments must learn to navigate the world alongside more pushy people. Anne coming into her own creates a beautiful story and I'm not sure that would have happened if she had married Wentworth so young.
Anne’s willingness to associate with Mrs. Smith in her new “lowly” situation despite the way her father and sister talk about her and try to *persuade* her not to shows how much Anne has grown and changed. She’s able to stand up to her pushy, arrogant family and prefer a sincere friend rather than be pressured into a vapid lifestyle of parties and trying to milk fake ties with distant relatives just because they’re higher in rank or richer than she is.
For my evidence I submit this passage from chapter 17 🤣:
and Elizabeth was disdainful, and Sir Walter severe.
"Westgate Buildings!" said he, "and who is Miss Anne Elliot to be visiting in Westgate Buildings? A Mrs Smith. A widow Mrs Smith; and who was her husband? One of five thousand Mr Smiths whose names are to be met with everywhere. And what is her attraction? That she is old and sickly. Upon my word, Miss Anne Elliot, you have the most extraordinary taste! Everything that revolts other people, low company, paltry rooms, foul air, disgusting associations are inviting to you. But surely you may put off this old lady till to-morrow: she is not so near her end, I presume, but that she may hope to see another day. What is her age? Forty?"
Anne was right to have turned Wentworth down, and that is one reason for the presence of Mrs. Smith in the story. Mrs. Smith shows us what could have been Anne's fate if fortune had not smiled upon Captain Wentworth. She could have been a penniless widow, cut off from her family for having made in imprudent association. But Anne, being the sensitive, introspective person she is, would probably not have been able to accept her situation the way that Mrs. Smith does. Poor thing would have been so miserable.
I've been thinking about this comment, and I kind of have the opposite take on Mrs. Smith. Mrs. Smith married a man who was said to have a large fortune and was not in a dangerous profession, like Wentworth. And yet she still ended up a poor widow, because she married a man who lacked character (he was extravagant, we are told, and left his affairs in a mess). Her situation shows me that there are no guarantees in life; that fortunes can be lost as well as made, that husbands can die even if they aren't military men, and that a prudent marriage choice does not always lead to security. What I'm seeing in the novel is that love and character endure, and those are a better basis for marriage.
Yes to all of this, Rabia!
Mrs. Smith did not have close family, that is why she was still at the school in Bath when Anne attended. She is perhaps an example of a young woman who did not have the guidance of a parent or parental figure, but I believe she is mostly there to explain Mr. Eliot’s history.
Yes! She's the opposite of Anne as well as really annoying me for reasons that I can't discuss until the next episode. I think the question is premature because the author is not yet done commenting upon it herself until later in the book.
Really neat point about Mrs. Smith shedding light on Anne’s decision
This is my third or fourth reading and I never put that together regarding Mrs. Smith's presence in the story. Very good point!