Finally finished listening to this excellent episode. I have to err on the side of Heidi’s line up. Once again you guys perfectly put into words feelings I’ve had but never been able to properly articulate. I’ve always disliked self-help as a genre and that self-focus/tribalism it creates, and the money making bent to it, is exactly why. Thank you for discussing! Also general question-what is an objectively good novel/“great book” that you have an irrational dislike for, yet still recognize is worth “caring” about to use the episode language? Mine have always been “Catcher in the Rye” and “Moby Dick.”
I have to vote for Sean's roster. I strongly dislike Emma so that wasn't too hard of a decision for me. I also did not realize Mansfield Park was the best written, but that people don't like it?!? I love that one. I relate to Fanny immensely, but I'm not sure why 🤔 I mostly read Austen in my own little bubble so it is rather interesting to hear others discuss!
First read of Emma (in high school) I really disliked Emma the character-she was the self-centered, yet inexplicably adored, popular girl my very nerdy and insecure self envied and disdained in equal measure. Rereading the book later I began to appreciate Emma and her journey so much more. First of all, she is the Austen heroine who struggles the most realistically with her sins-she relapses and does not have a linear journey towards more virtuous behavior and more honest assessment of her failings. She, like pretty much every person on the planet, thinks she’s a much better person than she actually is, and doesn’t always realize that good intentions don’t make up for poor decisions/prevent her decisions from hurting others, and that’s an uncomfortable reality to face. Secondly, the book structurally is SUCH a reward as a reread-more so than other Austen novels I think. Because rereading you get to assume this wonderful position of indulgent superiority over Emma and watch her flail around matchmaking while being COMPLETELY unaware of the feelings/entanglements around her-like her misreading of the Jane/Frank situation is so much funnier when you know the proper reading of it and can correctly interpret Jane/Frank’s actions towards each other. Third, Emma is the Austen heroine (in my opinion) who enters into the most ‘unequal’ relationship in one sense-Mr. Knightley is very much her moral and intellectual superior, and yet he loves her so much. He is fully aware of her faults, proud of her virtues, and just wants her to be the wonderful person he knows she is capable of being. Emma doesn’t deserve Knightley, but that’s what makes their relationship so sweet and hopeful in a sense. Given that I believe my husband is a much better human being than I am, I find the dynamic much more interesting than I did when I first read it. All of this massive rant is to say I firmly believe that Emma is a book (and character) that grows on you the more chances you give it, and that I think Austen purposefully wanted it to be that way. So give it another chance!
That is probably the book I enjoy reading the least. It is so long and she tends to get on my nerves (I also get really annoyed with Frank Churchill). She thinks so highly of herself! Some characters are annoying or obnoxious, but so funny and ridiculous that I still enjoy them (like the church guy Eldon... I think his name is). I also don't see myself in Emma so I probably have the least empathy for her. However, I bet if Close Reads read it, I would find a new appreciation for it 😎 The most recent movie adaptation of Emma with Ana Taylor-Joy made me like it a bit better.
I do agree that Northanger Abbey is underrated and hilarious. As a teen who loved HP fan fiction and maybe took my Hogwarts House a little too seriously, reading Northanger Abbey is such a gift because it lets me laugh at myself as I laugh at Catherine.
This was such a great episode! I think Heidi for sure has the winning team. And yes, I really enjoyed The Murder of Mr. Wickham. Think Jane Austen meets Agatha Christie!
We all enter the Austen world in our own way! Wonder which one you will read next 😊
I remember the first time I read P&P. A college professor assigned it and I don't think I had ever even heard of Jane Austen (maybe heard her name, but for sure hadn't read a book or watched an adaptation). I started reading it and could not stop! I consumed it like a starving person. I grew up reading Babysitters Club and had no idea of the feast that awaited me with truly great books!
This was such a great episode! I loved it all. I think I may have to side with Sean’s roster, mostly because I have pretty much a 5 way tie for favorite Austen book and Sense and Sensibility is the bottom for me, so while Heidi does have P&P which, if forced at gunpoint to choose only one, I would probably choose, Sean has three favorites as opposed to two, and the three underrated ones at that, which I feel honor bound to defend.
On the topic of David’s theory about self help books, it reminds me of my mom’s comment after reading one of the enneagram books that there was nothing in it that she hadn’t already learned from Jane Austen. And it’s true! There is so much to ponder about character and behavior in Austen, both the good and the bad, and more removed from your own life which allows you to see a little more clearly. I like to say I hope to become the kind of woman about whom Austen wouldn’t write paragraphs such as she writes about Dick Musgrove. Asking yourself “what would Jane Austen say about me” is not a bad way to improve your character 😂
Jan 31, 2023·edited Jan 31, 2023Liked by David Kern
Oh my goodness, I loved loved loved your answer to my question! He really is a good (young) man so I am quite willing to give him a pass on this one. But it brings up important questions about reading, and I was so happy to hear you affirm everything I already thought to myself, LOL.
The article I linked to actually touches on something different, though, and I'd love to hear some thoughts on it. Here's a taste:
'He [Wentworth] was out in the world and on the ocean; she [Anne] was trapped in dining rooms and drawing rooms and the four walls of her own mind. But in the end it was their mutual need for each other that drove them, the same faithful love propelling them forward. The experience of the man on the ocean is illuminated and enriched by that of the woman at home—and vice versa. The heroine’s story provides a window into another aspect of what it means to be human, enabling us as readers to inhabit more fully our own humanity."
I happen to agree! But I still have a hard time articulating (or maybe just admitting?) why it takes more of an effort to get a guy to see the universality of a girl's experience than vice versa. Although I just read Emily's Runaway Imagination with my 8yo son and he loved it. And the aforementioned son loved All of a Kind Family when he was young. So maybe we (inadvertently) teach boys to only identify with "boy books"? Was it Heidi that said this is exactly why Austen should be read in high school? I agree.
I vote for Heidi’s roster of Pride and Prejudice, Emma, Sense and Sensibility...hands down! That said, I really enjoyed this, my first, reading of Persuasion; and I have not yet read Mansfield Park.
Finally finished listening to this excellent episode. I have to err on the side of Heidi’s line up. Once again you guys perfectly put into words feelings I’ve had but never been able to properly articulate. I’ve always disliked self-help as a genre and that self-focus/tribalism it creates, and the money making bent to it, is exactly why. Thank you for discussing! Also general question-what is an objectively good novel/“great book” that you have an irrational dislike for, yet still recognize is worth “caring” about to use the episode language? Mine have always been “Catcher in the Rye” and “Moby Dick.”
I have to vote for Sean's roster. I strongly dislike Emma so that wasn't too hard of a decision for me. I also did not realize Mansfield Park was the best written, but that people don't like it?!? I love that one. I relate to Fanny immensely, but I'm not sure why 🤔 I mostly read Austen in my own little bubble so it is rather interesting to hear others discuss!
First read of Emma (in high school) I really disliked Emma the character-she was the self-centered, yet inexplicably adored, popular girl my very nerdy and insecure self envied and disdained in equal measure. Rereading the book later I began to appreciate Emma and her journey so much more. First of all, she is the Austen heroine who struggles the most realistically with her sins-she relapses and does not have a linear journey towards more virtuous behavior and more honest assessment of her failings. She, like pretty much every person on the planet, thinks she’s a much better person than she actually is, and doesn’t always realize that good intentions don’t make up for poor decisions/prevent her decisions from hurting others, and that’s an uncomfortable reality to face. Secondly, the book structurally is SUCH a reward as a reread-more so than other Austen novels I think. Because rereading you get to assume this wonderful position of indulgent superiority over Emma and watch her flail around matchmaking while being COMPLETELY unaware of the feelings/entanglements around her-like her misreading of the Jane/Frank situation is so much funnier when you know the proper reading of it and can correctly interpret Jane/Frank’s actions towards each other. Third, Emma is the Austen heroine (in my opinion) who enters into the most ‘unequal’ relationship in one sense-Mr. Knightley is very much her moral and intellectual superior, and yet he loves her so much. He is fully aware of her faults, proud of her virtues, and just wants her to be the wonderful person he knows she is capable of being. Emma doesn’t deserve Knightley, but that’s what makes their relationship so sweet and hopeful in a sense. Given that I believe my husband is a much better human being than I am, I find the dynamic much more interesting than I did when I first read it. All of this massive rant is to say I firmly believe that Emma is a book (and character) that grows on you the more chances you give it, and that I think Austen purposefully wanted it to be that way. So give it another chance!
With accolades like those, how could I refuse? I do love the point about her journey not being linear and relapsing...it is so very human!
I also wonder if upon a reread, I would give Emma more grace now that I'm older. She is less of a peer to me now. Weird how that happens 😉
Why the strong dislike of EMMA?
That is probably the book I enjoy reading the least. It is so long and she tends to get on my nerves (I also get really annoyed with Frank Churchill). She thinks so highly of herself! Some characters are annoying or obnoxious, but so funny and ridiculous that I still enjoy them (like the church guy Eldon... I think his name is). I also don't see myself in Emma so I probably have the least empathy for her. However, I bet if Close Reads read it, I would find a new appreciation for it 😎 The most recent movie adaptation of Emma with Ana Taylor-Joy made me like it a bit better.
JA said that she was going to make a character that no one but herself would like!
Ha, really? That is funny. I guess I'm par for the course then 😏
I did not realize they had already covered Mansfield Park! Yippee!
Oh no! Scrolling through the past episodes. I guess it was a different podcast. Clearly not as good! I’m so embarrassed.
Ha! Don't be embarrassed. That just means we will have it to look forward to in the future :)
I agree that Henry Tilney is an underrated Austen leading man. I also find Northanger Abbey to be delightful, and the funniest of the 6 novels.
I do agree that Northanger Abbey is underrated and hilarious. As a teen who loved HP fan fiction and maybe took my Hogwarts House a little too seriously, reading Northanger Abbey is such a gift because it lets me laugh at myself as I laugh at Catherine.
Northanger Abbey might be my favorite Austen novel! It’s always a toss up between it and Emma.
This was such a great episode! I think Heidi for sure has the winning team. And yes, I really enjoyed The Murder of Mr. Wickham. Think Jane Austen meets Agatha Christie!
I may be the odd duck that’s only read Persuasion and Mansfield Park-- not P&P, S&S, or Emma. 😬
We all enter the Austen world in our own way! Wonder which one you will read next 😊
I remember the first time I read P&P. A college professor assigned it and I don't think I had ever even heard of Jane Austen (maybe heard her name, but for sure hadn't read a book or watched an adaptation). I started reading it and could not stop! I consumed it like a starving person. I grew up reading Babysitters Club and had no idea of the feast that awaited me with truly great books!
Well then you have a bunch of GREAT reading ahead of you. I wish I could read P&P for the first time again lol.
David Kern what a wonderful compliment to a book! Good books always reward re-reading, but that first time experience? Priceless.
This was such a great episode! I loved it all. I think I may have to side with Sean’s roster, mostly because I have pretty much a 5 way tie for favorite Austen book and Sense and Sensibility is the bottom for me, so while Heidi does have P&P which, if forced at gunpoint to choose only one, I would probably choose, Sean has three favorites as opposed to two, and the three underrated ones at that, which I feel honor bound to defend.
On the topic of David’s theory about self help books, it reminds me of my mom’s comment after reading one of the enneagram books that there was nothing in it that she hadn’t already learned from Jane Austen. And it’s true! There is so much to ponder about character and behavior in Austen, both the good and the bad, and more removed from your own life which allows you to see a little more clearly. I like to say I hope to become the kind of woman about whom Austen wouldn’t write paragraphs such as she writes about Dick Musgrove. Asking yourself “what would Jane Austen say about me” is not a bad way to improve your character 😂
I love that question of “What would Jane say about me?” Absolutely brilliant
Oh my goodness, I loved loved loved your answer to my question! He really is a good (young) man so I am quite willing to give him a pass on this one. But it brings up important questions about reading, and I was so happy to hear you affirm everything I already thought to myself, LOL.
The article I linked to actually touches on something different, though, and I'd love to hear some thoughts on it. Here's a taste:
'He [Wentworth] was out in the world and on the ocean; she [Anne] was trapped in dining rooms and drawing rooms and the four walls of her own mind. But in the end it was their mutual need for each other that drove them, the same faithful love propelling them forward. The experience of the man on the ocean is illuminated and enriched by that of the woman at home—and vice versa. The heroine’s story provides a window into another aspect of what it means to be human, enabling us as readers to inhabit more fully our own humanity."
I happen to agree! But I still have a hard time articulating (or maybe just admitting?) why it takes more of an effort to get a guy to see the universality of a girl's experience than vice versa. Although I just read Emily's Runaway Imagination with my 8yo son and he loved it. And the aforementioned son loved All of a Kind Family when he was young. So maybe we (inadvertently) teach boys to only identify with "boy books"? Was it Heidi that said this is exactly why Austen should be read in high school? I agree.
https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/why-heroines-matter/
Absolutely chuffed my wine and cheese question was answered.
It's a good question!
I vote for Heidi’s roster of Pride and Prejudice, Emma, Sense and Sensibility...hands down! That said, I really enjoyed this, my first, reading of Persuasion; and I have not yet read Mansfield Park.