This section of Laurus is fairly traumatic—so traumatic, in fact, that Heidi says she can barely bring herself to re-read it. So naturally David, Heidi, and Tim discussed what its purpose is, what Vodolazkin seems to be after, how they read this book, a few deep theological questions the book raises, and much more. Happy listening!
I love this book and the ongoing conversation. I was struck by the comment Heidi made about Arseny wanting to die. He keeps putting himself at risk. It seems he's lost his will to live. I think as Christians when we come face to face with the evil of our sin we also take on this burden. We can't see a way of penance or restoration. We long for death to end the pain and suffering of dealing with our own sinful deeds. I doubt Arseny will find his rest in laying that burden at the foot of the cross , (tho I've not yet finished the book), as Pilgrim did, but I relate as a sinner to the destitute wanderings of a lost soul seeking relief from the guilt of sin. I find the pace of it disturbing as David does but I think its purposeful to demonstrate the underlying purposeless day to day directionless activities of Arsenys life. I don't know that I've ever read a book that so profoundly illustrated the destitute expression of a lost soul as well as this one.
Heidi - I would be curious (if it’s ever appropriate) to hear your expansion on the thought that Protestants think “You sin, you ask for forgiveness and there are no consequences.” Do you mean only spiritually?
I don’t know any Protestants that think that other than if you’re speaking that we believe that it doesn’t have an eternal impact on our salvation. Which is true and what I believe. But I also believe Jesus doesn’t promise earthly or or spiritual consequences will be spared in the sense that you may cause spiritual injury to yourself or others that won’t be fully healed this side of heaven.
Could you expound on your understanding? I found that whole conversation incredibly fascinating. I greatly admire the Orthodox Church even though my theology differs from it in some key ways and I appreciated the discussion very much.
I also found the discussion to be very interesting. I am coming from a Catholic perspective and seeing differing views of sin and the consequences of sin are intriguing. During the episode I found myself interested in the Orthodox view of penance. After reading your question I am curious about your view, Christine. If there are spiritual wounds that can not be fully healed this side of Heaven, where are they healed?
Speaking in plain terms - the view that myself and my other, protestant friends have regarding sin & restoration would be:
- Yes, you ask for forgiveness of Christ first for your sin and because of his sacrifice on the cross there is no "journey back to God" at that point. For us, that was the point of Christ's sacrifice - that it removes all barriers between us and God forever and for all time so we can enjoy relationship always and immediately regardless of the sin. That would be the understanding we have of Romans 8:1.
- That forgiveness God gives does not always translate to immediate healing and forgiveness in the world though. We may still lose spouse or children because of the way we've treated them, we may still lose our job because of the way we stole from our company, we may lose a friends' trust forever because of the way we betrayed or lied to them. In that way, my protestant friends would say that its our job to do our best to reconcile and bring restoration as we're able; but that in the physical world we may never find the healing and restoration we long for. Some of that healing and restoration will only be found (perfectly) once we see Christ face to face. We wouldn't say that needs to be done as penance though - to pay for the sin. We would say that our actions towards reconciliation and repentance are fueled by the love, mercy, and full forgiveness we've received already from Christ.
- Personally, we would say that one person cannot ever truly "owe" us anything because Christ already has forgiven each of us of more than we could ever require of another person. Just like in Jesus' parable in Matthew 18:21-35; how could we ever demand what someone else "owes" us in debt when we've been forgiven by Christ for so much. We would say our forgiveness of others should be as complete and immediate as is possible; acknowledging, again, that sometimes that there can't be perfect restoration because of the ongoing effects of sin on the world and relationships here on earth. That would be the "So far as it depends on you, live at peace with all men" (Romans 12:18) piece.
When I say "There are spiritual wounds that won't be fully healed this side of heaven" what I mean by that is best illustrated (in a literary sense) by Frodo's return to the Shire. So even when danger is past for him, the ring has been destroyed (Middle Earth saved), and he should be fully alive and enjoying the life and freedom purchased by his sacrifice - he's unable to because of the deep wounds the ring has left as a result of his carrying it. Its only when he boards the ship and leaves for the Grey Havens that he experiences true joy and full healing. So, for him, his full salvation and the restoration of his soul are fully accomplished when he leaves Middle Earth. In the same way, some wounds we receive as a result of either our own sin or others' sin towards us cannot always be perfectly healed while we're still in "Middle Earth."
I hope that makes sense and isn't too long winded. Also I'm LOVING the book and letting it wash over me like they suggested.
I love theology and literature so, for me, the book is making me think deeply about my own understanding of the Christian experience as well as transporting me into Arseny's world. I can completely see how a journey like Arseny's could be healing to his soul.
I love this book and the ongoing conversation. I was struck by the comment Heidi made about Arseny wanting to die. He keeps putting himself at risk. It seems he's lost his will to live. I think as Christians when we come face to face with the evil of our sin we also take on this burden. We can't see a way of penance or restoration. We long for death to end the pain and suffering of dealing with our own sinful deeds. I doubt Arseny will find his rest in laying that burden at the foot of the cross , (tho I've not yet finished the book), as Pilgrim did, but I relate as a sinner to the destitute wanderings of a lost soul seeking relief from the guilt of sin. I find the pace of it disturbing as David does but I think its purposeful to demonstrate the underlying purposeless day to day directionless activities of Arsenys life. I don't know that I've ever read a book that so profoundly illustrated the destitute expression of a lost soul as well as this one.
Heidi - I would be curious (if it’s ever appropriate) to hear your expansion on the thought that Protestants think “You sin, you ask for forgiveness and there are no consequences.” Do you mean only spiritually?
I don’t know any Protestants that think that other than if you’re speaking that we believe that it doesn’t have an eternal impact on our salvation. Which is true and what I believe. But I also believe Jesus doesn’t promise earthly or or spiritual consequences will be spared in the sense that you may cause spiritual injury to yourself or others that won’t be fully healed this side of heaven.
Could you expound on your understanding? I found that whole conversation incredibly fascinating. I greatly admire the Orthodox Church even though my theology differs from it in some key ways and I appreciated the discussion very much.
I also found the discussion to be very interesting. I am coming from a Catholic perspective and seeing differing views of sin and the consequences of sin are intriguing. During the episode I found myself interested in the Orthodox view of penance. After reading your question I am curious about your view, Christine. If there are spiritual wounds that can not be fully healed this side of Heaven, where are they healed?
Speaking in plain terms - the view that myself and my other, protestant friends have regarding sin & restoration would be:
- Yes, you ask for forgiveness of Christ first for your sin and because of his sacrifice on the cross there is no "journey back to God" at that point. For us, that was the point of Christ's sacrifice - that it removes all barriers between us and God forever and for all time so we can enjoy relationship always and immediately regardless of the sin. That would be the understanding we have of Romans 8:1.
- That forgiveness God gives does not always translate to immediate healing and forgiveness in the world though. We may still lose spouse or children because of the way we've treated them, we may still lose our job because of the way we stole from our company, we may lose a friends' trust forever because of the way we betrayed or lied to them. In that way, my protestant friends would say that its our job to do our best to reconcile and bring restoration as we're able; but that in the physical world we may never find the healing and restoration we long for. Some of that healing and restoration will only be found (perfectly) once we see Christ face to face. We wouldn't say that needs to be done as penance though - to pay for the sin. We would say that our actions towards reconciliation and repentance are fueled by the love, mercy, and full forgiveness we've received already from Christ.
- Personally, we would say that one person cannot ever truly "owe" us anything because Christ already has forgiven each of us of more than we could ever require of another person. Just like in Jesus' parable in Matthew 18:21-35; how could we ever demand what someone else "owes" us in debt when we've been forgiven by Christ for so much. We would say our forgiveness of others should be as complete and immediate as is possible; acknowledging, again, that sometimes that there can't be perfect restoration because of the ongoing effects of sin on the world and relationships here on earth. That would be the "So far as it depends on you, live at peace with all men" (Romans 12:18) piece.
When I say "There are spiritual wounds that won't be fully healed this side of heaven" what I mean by that is best illustrated (in a literary sense) by Frodo's return to the Shire. So even when danger is past for him, the ring has been destroyed (Middle Earth saved), and he should be fully alive and enjoying the life and freedom purchased by his sacrifice - he's unable to because of the deep wounds the ring has left as a result of his carrying it. Its only when he boards the ship and leaves for the Grey Havens that he experiences true joy and full healing. So, for him, his full salvation and the restoration of his soul are fully accomplished when he leaves Middle Earth. In the same way, some wounds we receive as a result of either our own sin or others' sin towards us cannot always be perfectly healed while we're still in "Middle Earth."
I hope that makes sense and isn't too long winded. Also I'm LOVING the book and letting it wash over me like they suggested.
I love theology and literature so, for me, the book is making me think deeply about my own understanding of the Christian experience as well as transporting me into Arseny's world. I can completely see how a journey like Arseny's could be healing to his soul.
Beautiful expression of theology. Thank you.