I would appreciate further discussion of David's previous point about Heathcliff and Cathy's love being childish, an obsession (perhaps he didn't say exactly like that but the childish comment stuck in my mind). Obsession seems like a great description of their relationship.
particularly because it feels like Edgar has a more adult love. His weakness as you all have mentioned seems to be a reflection of the times they live (referring to Sean mentioning how Edgar gave Linton to Heathcliff even though he knew what a monster Heathcliff was). It seems like the father of a child would be able to exercise his paternal right over the uncle of the child. It seems that Edgar was taking care of all the things as an adult would - including loving and protecting his insane wife.
I want to hear more on “is this a love story?” Tim got me thinking about eros with his coverage of The Four Loves on his Hot Takes in the Classics podcast. So then I was thinking about Ethics of Beauty (time for a reread!). I’m intrigued by the psychology of Heathcliff.
I did notice today something quite obvious, that orphaned Cathy is taken in by the Lintons just as Heathcliff was taken in by Earnshaw Sr. It’s like there’s some dark intertwining of their identities that mages me want to go back and pay more attention to what they actually say to each other. But then we’re getting it all through Nelly, so it’s vague.
I was taken a back by the suggestion of anything sexual (besides kisses) between Heathcliff and Catherine. Do people actually think that would have happened with Nelly in the room?
I think that the speculation arises from the following. First, we are not convinced that Nelly is an entirely reliable narrator. Thus, she may not be as present or as all-knowing as she seems. Second, given the indirection with which Brontë describes Catherine's pregnancy, her description of the "kisses" between Catherine and Heathcliff is downright graphic. For example, "he seized, and in a most passionate kiss, he said...", "They were too much absorbed in their mutual joy to suffer embarrassment. Catherine had risen with an impulse to meet him: she held him in her arms; he kept her there..", "he fastened her lips to his, and clasped him with her whole strength...". The point here is that the scene is packed with physical verbs, "held", "seized", "fastened", "clasped". Finally, we know they spent lots of time alone on the moors, so if they were doing that when people were present, what were they doing when they were alone?
I think the point is that (1) Catherine absolutely broke the marital bounds of fidelity, whether a physical relationship occurred or not; (2) Brontë leaves it ambiguous whether it did.
To your first point: If Nelly is not a reliable narrator, as in, she really wasn't in the room at all, then she's making up what happened in the room before Catherine died. But I still hold that if Nelly was in the room, there is no way anything beyond kisses and embraces happened—however passionate they may have been. Nelly is not going to be telling an almost complete stranger about two people having sex in front of her.
And b/c the description of the kisses and embracing is graphic—as it would have been for a married woman to be kissing someone besides her husband in that way, animalistic even—there is no need to suppose anything beyond that. That kind of passion between two unmarried people should have brought on embarrassment: that's the point of that line. There is no need to imagine anything beyond that. I'm not arguing anything in relation to their time on the moors (though they were a whole lot younger then, and anything sexual at that age was probably also unlikely). I am also not arguing that Catherine didn't break her marital bonds by kissing and embracing Heathcliff (she certainly did—and in thought and words she had been from the beginning), but there's nothing in the text of that scene to imply they had sex when she was on her death bed, and plenty to say they didn't.
It seems as though we are lingering on this book longer than books of comparable length and I just wanted to express my appreciation for that. As someone - David I think - indicated on the anniversary episode, the podcast used to linger for much longer on each book and as much as I enjoy pretty much all the discussions I think liked that format best of all.
The only other story this book reminds me of is Richard III. Glossing over all the subtext here of course but where most stories have a rise-fall-rise, Richard III starts pitch black and stays there and WH seems to be going the same way. Do I want that every time I read? No, but it's great here and there. Although I agree that the structure is strange and I have truly no idea where it's going.
Question for close readers...like Sean, I was also blindsided that Cathy was pregnant. Heidi said that Nellie made "an oblique reference to a happy expectation of something coming in the Spring, a Victorian code for a baby coming." I searched my Kindle version for happy, expect, and Spring and came up with nothing. The fact that Cathy is pregnant made me even more struck by her selfishness...she was starving not only herself for three days, but her little one. Did anyone else notice a reference to her expecting a baby and can you point to where it is?
In chapter 13 (page 135 in my kindle): "And there was a double cause to desire it, for on her existence depended that of another: we cherished the hope that in a little while, Mr. Linton's heart would be gladdened, and his lands secured from a stranger's gripe, by the birth of an heir."
I would appreciate further discussion of David's previous point about Heathcliff and Cathy's love being childish, an obsession (perhaps he didn't say exactly like that but the childish comment stuck in my mind). Obsession seems like a great description of their relationship.
particularly because it feels like Edgar has a more adult love. His weakness as you all have mentioned seems to be a reflection of the times they live (referring to Sean mentioning how Edgar gave Linton to Heathcliff even though he knew what a monster Heathcliff was). It seems like the father of a child would be able to exercise his paternal right over the uncle of the child. It seems that Edgar was taking care of all the things as an adult would - including loving and protecting his insane wife.
I want to hear more on “is this a love story?” Tim got me thinking about eros with his coverage of The Four Loves on his Hot Takes in the Classics podcast. So then I was thinking about Ethics of Beauty (time for a reread!). I’m intrigued by the psychology of Heathcliff.
I did notice today something quite obvious, that orphaned Cathy is taken in by the Lintons just as Heathcliff was taken in by Earnshaw Sr. It’s like there’s some dark intertwining of their identities that mages me want to go back and pay more attention to what they actually say to each other. But then we’re getting it all through Nelly, so it’s vague.
I was taken a back by the suggestion of anything sexual (besides kisses) between Heathcliff and Catherine. Do people actually think that would have happened with Nelly in the room?
I think that the speculation arises from the following. First, we are not convinced that Nelly is an entirely reliable narrator. Thus, she may not be as present or as all-knowing as she seems. Second, given the indirection with which Brontë describes Catherine's pregnancy, her description of the "kisses" between Catherine and Heathcliff is downright graphic. For example, "he seized, and in a most passionate kiss, he said...", "They were too much absorbed in their mutual joy to suffer embarrassment. Catherine had risen with an impulse to meet him: she held him in her arms; he kept her there..", "he fastened her lips to his, and clasped him with her whole strength...". The point here is that the scene is packed with physical verbs, "held", "seized", "fastened", "clasped". Finally, we know they spent lots of time alone on the moors, so if they were doing that when people were present, what were they doing when they were alone?
I think the point is that (1) Catherine absolutely broke the marital bounds of fidelity, whether a physical relationship occurred or not; (2) Brontë leaves it ambiguous whether it did.
To your first point: If Nelly is not a reliable narrator, as in, she really wasn't in the room at all, then she's making up what happened in the room before Catherine died. But I still hold that if Nelly was in the room, there is no way anything beyond kisses and embraces happened—however passionate they may have been. Nelly is not going to be telling an almost complete stranger about two people having sex in front of her.
And b/c the description of the kisses and embracing is graphic—as it would have been for a married woman to be kissing someone besides her husband in that way, animalistic even—there is no need to suppose anything beyond that. That kind of passion between two unmarried people should have brought on embarrassment: that's the point of that line. There is no need to imagine anything beyond that. I'm not arguing anything in relation to their time on the moors (though they were a whole lot younger then, and anything sexual at that age was probably also unlikely). I am also not arguing that Catherine didn't break her marital bonds by kissing and embracing Heathcliff (she certainly did—and in thought and words she had been from the beginning), but there's nothing in the text of that scene to imply they had sex when she was on her death bed, and plenty to say they didn't.
Why have the Close Reads HQ *video* episodes ended, and when will they return?
It seems as though we are lingering on this book longer than books of comparable length and I just wanted to express my appreciation for that. As someone - David I think - indicated on the anniversary episode, the podcast used to linger for much longer on each book and as much as I enjoy pretty much all the discussions I think liked that format best of all.
The only other story this book reminds me of is Richard III. Glossing over all the subtext here of course but where most stories have a rise-fall-rise, Richard III starts pitch black and stays there and WH seems to be going the same way. Do I want that every time I read? No, but it's great here and there. Although I agree that the structure is strange and I have truly no idea where it's going.
Question for close readers...like Sean, I was also blindsided that Cathy was pregnant. Heidi said that Nellie made "an oblique reference to a happy expectation of something coming in the Spring, a Victorian code for a baby coming." I searched my Kindle version for happy, expect, and Spring and came up with nothing. The fact that Cathy is pregnant made me even more struck by her selfishness...she was starving not only herself for three days, but her little one. Did anyone else notice a reference to her expecting a baby and can you point to where it is?
Also, in Chapter XII, “He [Edgar] told me to say that Dr. Kenneth was in attendance, and hoped she would do well in the end.”
In chapter 13 (page 135 in my kindle): "And there was a double cause to desire it, for on her existence depended that of another: we cherished the hope that in a little while, Mr. Linton's heart would be gladdened, and his lands secured from a stranger's gripe, by the birth of an heir."